pH of water is out of control!

Something is going wrong with my dye premix "chemical water". As I have posted before, we have very high pH tap water, above 8.2, I am not sure how much higher. For this reason, I pH balance my chemical water with household vinegar down to neutral before use. I also add urea and sodium alginate. I keep it at normal household temps, about 70 degrees this time of year. Within about 10 days, it has a very strong ammonia smell and the pH is back up, off the charts, higher than before. Paula, you explained something about the urea creating ammonia. Why is this happening? Other people have mentioned keeping their chem water much, much longer.

I assume I can't dye with this water but I'm no chemist. Can I (a) dye with it, assuming it is basically activated dye and I have a few hours to use it and/or (b) re-balance the pH and use it? I am also guessing I will need to use bottled water (groan) in the future, but maybe someone's answer will enlighten me. Thanks. Jen

urea turns to ammonia

Urea will go bad, eventually, when dissolved in water. It's natural for it to turn to ammonia. That's why diaper pails quickly develop a nasty ammonia smell. (Although the urea we use is made from natural gas, not urine, it is the same chemical, susceptible to the same chemical reactions.)

Would it be possible for you to get a small refrigerator to store your chemical water in? That would make a big difference. I like having a refrigerator for dyes, because the mixed-up dyes themselves stay good in there for weeks or even months, as long as their pH is balanced (with no soda ash and no ammonia smell). If not, perhaps you should resign yourself to mixing up fresh chemical water every week, not adding the urea so far in advance. Not a very nice answer, I know. Urea dissolves very quickly, so at least it doesn't take much time to add it fresh.

Whay is this happening to you? It's probably just bad luck. How quickly the urea to ammonia reaction proceeds may vary with the temperature of your house (though 70°F certainly seems reasonable), what other chemicals are naturally found in your water supply, and which microbes happen to be around. It's hard to control which microbes you have in your environment; it's considered to be a bad thing, for example, to make home-made vinegar in the same kitchen in which you also brew beer or wine, because a little bit of the vinegar-making bacteria will quickly spoil beer or wine.

A couple of years ago, Donata Pfisterer posted on the DyersLIST mailing list she had observed that chemical water goes bad more quickly when it is stored in plastic milk jugs than when it is stored in plastic detergent buckets, which are a different kind of plastic and are much thicker and heavier. Does it make a difference in your case if you use a different container to store your chemical water? What are you using for storage now?

Another option, a simpler one, is to give up the use of urea altogether. Urea helps to keep the dye moist on the fabric, long enough for it to react, but it is not always necessary for that, depending on your humidity and what exactly you are doing. In a dry climate, you can wrap tie-dyed items in plastic, instead. It also slightly increases the solubility of some dyes, but not more than maybe 20%, which is not a very big effect. Several tie-dyers have said that they have given up urea with no ill effects. It's worth considering, since it's been giving you so much trouble.

I would discard the chemical water once it begins to smell of ammonia, not use it.

Ammonia smell

I have been tie dyeing for about a year now, and just had a batch of chemical water go bad with the ammonia smell. Very strong! I did something different this time; I mixed the alginate and urea together in the water, and in the past I have always mixed in alginate ONLY when I wanted to thicken the dye (I usually use it water consistency). This is all so interesting. I think I will get a new jug for the water and mix only alginate and water, and add the urea when needed. i'll see what happens. One last note: I live in FL and it is starting to heat up a bit. Even though this hasen't happened in the past, the heat could be an issue. I always keep my mixed dye in the refrigerator, but leave the chem water in the garage. Hmmm

Urea and Ammonia

The fact about the bacteria was interesting. I use an old ex-diaper pail to let a batch of dyed shirts cure in the sun. I put a black plastic bag over it to get the temps up and it works great. Thing is, that the whole thing goes bad and turns to ammonia after about 2 days and un-tieing the shirts is not as fun as it usually is. I have often wondered since other shirts cured in black plastic bags never go "sour" even after days of a really damp heat in the bags. Thanks so much Paula for sharing your invaluable knoledge with us! Once again I have learned something interesting.

Thanks - using plastic jug for chem water

Thank you, Paula. That was helpful! We just converted our entire home to solar electricity, so as soon as I can find a small fridge, I will be getting one for my dyes and chemical water, prior to this I was too guilty over the energy use. I have been storing the chem water in a gallon vinegar jug, it is heavier than a milk jug but both are #2 HDPE.

I like to mix the chem water in gallon batches because it's my least favorite part of the process, I mix the alginate in with an old LOUD leaky blender and the less time I spend with that thing, the better. But I had not thought of mixing the alginate and pH balancing, then adding only urea as needed so it's fresher. Giving it up altogether is tempting as well. Thanks. Jen

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